Author Topic: Forgiveness, unconditionally  (Read 2862 times)

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Offline davetaff

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2018, 02:46:09 PM »
Dave,
           What evidence is there that they were forgiven?
What evidence is there that they repented?
All we know is that Jesus did not forgive them and that he committed them to his Father.

Hi John
Thanks for your reply there is no evidence as such we are not told what happened to those who crucified Christ but what we can be sure of is God the father would grant the request of his son.

Mat 21:22  And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
     

And I take it for granted Christ believed he would receive his request that those who crucified him would be forgiven this sin.

we need to remember also it was essential that Christ died without it there could be no salvation we also have this verse.

Mar 11:25  And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.       

and here we are commanded to pray for those who sin against us it says nothing about  the repentance of those who sin against us.

I don't think Christ forgave anyone it is the father who grants forgiveness and we need to remember if we do not forgive our father in heaven will not forgive us and if we are not forgiven we cannot enter his rest.


Love and Peace
Dave

Offline John

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2018, 10:41:15 PM »
The whole OT teaches that inorder to get right with God there has to be repentance and a turning away from godless living.
So it follows that repentance is an implied requirement, even if it is not implied. The command is to go and sort matters out with your brother. That means resolving any in indents between you and that means the offender needs to say sorry.

Offline davetaff

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #82 on: November 07, 2018, 11:39:43 AM »
The whole OT teaches that inorder to get right with God there has to be repentance and a turning away from godless living.
So it follows that repentance is an implied requirement, even if it is not implied. The command is to go and sort matters out with your brother. That means resolving any in indents between you and that means the offender needs to say sorry.

Hi John
I have never said repentance is not necessary what I am saying we should do all in our power to bring forth that repentance.
We should show our enemies that we love them as God showed us when Christ died for us.
As for the OT the Israelites where under the law not grace if they broke the law there were consequence and if they broke any of the laws you broke the whole law and the consequence of this was death which happens to Israel in 70AD after they killed our lord.

The scriptures tell us that all Israel will be saved this can only happen when Israel repent's  still a future event.
So yes repentance is a prerequisite of coming to God but God made the first move to make it possible by sending his son to die for them and for us and we should follow his example.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline John

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #83 on: November 08, 2018, 06:04:15 AM »
Dave,
            When that is not possible, re Suzie Lampugh, results of hit and run or terrorist act or simply won't recognise they have hurt/offended one?

What then?

How does one week reconciliation with someone who won't talk Idaho one can't talk to?

Sometimes the option is to hand the situation over to God. There has been no or cannot be an apology so there can be no forgiveness.

Offline davetaff

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #84 on: November 09, 2018, 12:42:05 PM »
Hi John
Thank you for your reply I realise this is a very difficult question but is the victim of an atrocity in danger of harbouring evil thoughts which can also be sinful.

.

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart       


As we see from the above even our thoughts can be sinful even if we don't act on them.
You say hand it over to God maybe the best way to do that is to pray that he would help the perpetrator of the crime to see the error of his ways then put everything behind you if evil thoughts count with God so will good thoughts.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline John

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #85 on: November 12, 2018, 01:01:15 PM »
Dave,
        Why do you think I have consistently use the example of Jesus being crucified?

When repentance is not there all one can do, is what Jesus did and hand the offender and the offence etc over to God.

He gives us the example of how to forgive and what to do when we cannot forgive.

As you say we have to be willing to forgive, to be prepared to take the initiative to love and show it.

This is fine in local disputes, but not always possible if the offender does not recognise they have caused offence or are not known.


Offline davetaff

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #86 on: November 13, 2018, 10:35:28 AM »
Dave,
        Why do you think I have consistently use the example of Jesus being crucified?

When repentance is not there all one can do, is what Jesus did and hand the offender and the offence etc over to God.

He gives us the example of how to forgive and what to do when we cannot forgive.

As you say we have to be willing to forgive, to be prepared to take the initiative to love and show it.

This is fine in local disputes, but not always possible if the offender does not recognise they have caused offence or are not known.

Hi John
Thank you for your reply now do you think we should hand forgiveness over to the father should we say I can't forgive you I hate you for what you've done so let God sort it out.
Or should we pray to the father to forgive them as we forgive them who trespass against us.
In other words if we don't forgive them then neither will the father forgive.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline John

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #87 on: November 13, 2018, 11:01:16 AM »
Dave,
         Again I repeat that we cope what Jesus did when he was crucified.
Do you think Jesus hated the unrepentant murders of him?

If we are copying Jesus, what sort of attitude do you think we should have?

When have I said we should do this?