Author Topic: Forgiveness, unconditionally  (Read 2863 times)

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Offline John

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2018, 12:37:30 PM »
Dave,
 The Bible stresses the need for repentance all the way through. A classic is 2Chronicles 7:14.
Or you have the dying thief who acknowledged his wrong before asking for forgiveness.
The need for repentance is so engrained that it is assumed.

So even verses that talk about forgiveness without mentioning repentance have it there as a basic condition.

If you cannot find verses that show that God forgives without repentance you will have to acknowledge that your dead about unconditional forgiveness are umbilical.

Offline francis drake

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #65 on: October 31, 2018, 02:29:00 PM »
Dave,
 The Bible stresses the need for repentance all the way through. A classic is 2Chronicles 7:14.
Or you have the dying thief who acknowledged his wrong before asking for forgiveness.
The need for repentance is so engrained that it is assumed.

So even verses that talk about forgiveness without mentioning repentance have it there as a basic condition.

If you cannot find verses that show that God forgives without repentance you will have to acknowledge that your dead about unconditional forgiveness are umbilical.
Agreed @John
Those who insist that the unrepentant should be forgiven, need to ask why God bothers with any judgement whatsoever.
If the wicked and the humble are to be treated equally, ie. forgiven, what's the point of surrendering our lives to Jesus.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #66 on: October 31, 2018, 02:30:27 PM »
Dave,
 The Bible stresses the need for repentance all the way through. A classic is 2Chronicles 7:14.
Or you have the dying thief who acknowledged his wrong before asking for forgiveness.
The need for repentance is so engrained that it is assumed.

So even verses that talk about forgiveness without mentioning repentance have it there as a basic condition.

If you cannot find verses that show that God forgives without repentance you will have to acknowledge that your dead about unconditional forgiveness are umbilical.


Hi John
Thanks for your post should we take our lead from God.

Rom 5:8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
   


and our lord had this to say.
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47  And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.     



So the question is should we be the first to offer the olive branch and forgive our enemies as God forgave us when Christ died for us when we were still sinners.

Yes there has to be repentance but we as Christians must be the first to forgive our enemies and make peace by so doing.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline John

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #67 on: October 31, 2018, 04:18:11 PM »
Dave,
           "So the question is should we be the first to offer the olive branch and forgive our enemies as God forgave us when Christ died for us when we were still sinners"

We were not forgive then. We were forgiven when we said sorry and accepted Gods forgiveness.

Yes we should take the first step etc etc but I'm not talking about crosswords in church, off people sitting in 'my' seat etc.
I'm talking about Christians who have beed raped or whose loved ones murdered or who have been robbed/conned etc.

For well meaning naive christians to say that Christian who have suffered  should without any sign of repentance forgive those who have harmed them is unbiblical and worse is cruel.

Our example is Jesus who while being crucified prayed to God the Father that he might forgive them. Note Jesus did not, I repeat. Jesus did not forgive them. He handed them over to God to deal with them.

Offline davetaff

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2018, 05:41:45 PM »
Dave,
           "So the question is should we be the first to offer the olive branch and forgive our enemies as God forgave us when Christ died for us when we were still sinners"

We were not forgive then. We were forgiven when we said sorry and accepted Gods forgiveness.

Yes we should take the first step etc etc but I'm not talking about crosswords in church, off people sitting in 'my' seat etc.
I'm talking about Christians who have beed raped or whose loved ones murdered or who have been robbed/conned etc.

For well meaning naive christians to say that Christian who have suffered  should without any sign of repentance forgive those who have harmed them is unbiblical and worse is cruel.

Our example is Jesus who while being crucified prayed to God the Father that he might forgive them. Note Jesus did not, I repeat. Jesus did not forgive them. He handed them over to God to deal with them.

Hi John
Thank you for your reply I have done a word search for repent and repentance which was not very profitable.

You said about Jesus praying on the cross are you saying God would refuse him I find that hard to believe I find these words of our lord instructive

Luk 6:27  But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28  Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luk 6:29  And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
Luk 6:30  Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
Luk 6:31  And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luk 6:32  For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
         


Do  we follow this advice or turn our backs on those who do us wrong until they say i'm sorry or do we follow the above in the hope it will bring them to pepent.
Love and Peace

Dave

Offline John

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #69 on: October 31, 2018, 08:05:43 PM »
Dave,
 "are you saying God would refuse him " where have I said that.
All I said was that Jesus did Not forgive his unrepeantant murders but handed them over to God.

You have not dealt with how we all become Christians.

Does God just say ' I forgive you', even when we are not sorry for sending Jesus to the cross.
or is salvation only because we have been sorry for our sin, have humbled ourselves to accept a gift of salvation? What did Peter say on penticost, ' repent' wasn't it.
Dave, this is basic abc of Christianity.

What has Luke 6 got to say about forgiveness?

Offline davetaff

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #70 on: November 01, 2018, 01:02:13 PM »
Dave,
 "are you saying God would refuse him " where have I said that.
All I said was that Jesus did Not forgive his unrepeantant murders but handed them over to God.

You have not dealt with how we all become Christians.

Does God just say ' I forgive you', even when we are not sorry for sending Jesus to the cross.
or is salvation only because we have been sorry for our sin, have humbled ourselves to accept a gift of salvation? What did Peter say on penticost, ' repent' wasn't it.
Dave, this is basic abc of Christianity.

What has Luke 6 got to say about forgiveness?

Hi John
Thank you for your reply I don't think I'm making my self clear as usual I am not saying we can have forgiveness with repentance what I am trying to say is now do we awaken repentance in others.
You ask about Luke 6 has to do with it I thought that was self evident it would be a good start to bring our enemies to repentance.
Or are you taking the world view that it someone hits you on the right cheek you should bash his head in that violence should be met with violence the human race has been doing that from the year dot and it has never solved anything.
Our Lord Jesus has shown us a better way Love the Lord our God and Love your neighbours and by doing so complying with all of God's law.
Yes there has to be repentance and It is our job to encourage and bring forth that repentance by following our Lords commands.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline John

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #71 on: November 01, 2018, 07:02:59 PM »
Dave,
            we can talk to people we've fallen out with, but the person who hits one in the face is unlikely to be someone known to one. How then can one talk or show love to them?
Take the detective case in the news the Suzie Lampugh murder. How should the Mother have respomded 30 years ago?
Should she have publicly said I forgive this unknown person who has taken my dayghter and done who knows what.
Or should she have committed this person to God for him  to deal with?
How could she show love and kindness to an unknown person?

If the attacker is known, they can be spoken to, love and lindness can be shown to them.
They will be prayed for. But if the attacker does not say sorry the Christian does not have to forgive them. But should hand them over to God for him in his love, mercy and justice to deal with.