Author Topic: Forgiveness, unconditionally  (Read 2038 times)

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Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2018, 11:48:05 PM »


thats it  :thumbs_up:

Offline francis drake

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2018, 11:27:26 PM »
@@@@[email protected]@@@

Let it be said at the beginning, "forgive" and "forgiveness" are crappy words that really need unpackaging!

I want to revisit this thread, starting with the correct meaning of the original Greek word (aphiemi) usually but not always translated as "forgive".
Unfortunately, the English words "forgive" and "forgiveness" carry a whole load of baggage which is not found in the Greek, and that makes for very confused understanding of what Jesus meant.
In English, forgiveness is generally regarded as an emotional word. Many times in counselling, someone has told me that they cannot forgive because their pain or anger is still too raw, too great, but forgiveness has nothing whatsoever to do with how you feel.
They have in fact got it back to front, putting the cart before the horse, waiting to feel better before they can forgive. The original Greek word, "aphiemi" conveys an unemotional, judicial decision, that must always be done first, only then will the pain or anger lose its power.

In essence, the Greek word "aphiemi" simply conveys a separation, a parting of company.

A good starting place is Strong's Concordance for the original meaning in the Greek,

◄ 863. aphi?mi ►
Strong's Concordance
aphi?mi: to send away, leave alone, permit
Original Word: ἀφίημι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: aphi?mi
Phonetic Spelling: (af-ee'-ay-mee)
Short Definition: I send away, release, remit, forgive, permit
Definition: (a) I send away, (b) I let go, release, permit to depart, (c) I remit, forgive, (d) I permit, suffer.

Word Origin
from apo and hi?mi (to send)
Definition
to send away, leave alone, permit

So how do we get the word "forgive" from the above Greek word, when the primary meaning is to "send away" etc?
I shall look at that in the next post.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2018, 11:31:21 AM »
Hi Frances
Thanks for the post I'm not much into the Greek meaning of words I find it very confusing what I do believe is that the KJV  translation was inspired I have no proof of this of course just what I believe.
The reason being I believe God wants us to understand what he has to say so if my bible says forgive or forgiveness then that's what God wants me to know.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline francis drake

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2018, 10:53:25 PM »
Hi Frances
Thanks for the post I'm not much into the Greek meaning of words I find it very confusing what I do believe is that the KJV  translation was inspired I have no proof of this of course just what I believe.
Do you still believe in the tooth fairy Dave?
You are clearly into mythology if you believe the KJV was inspired. If that were the case, it wouldn't have needed its various corrections over the years would it? In its original writing, the scriptures were certainly God breathed, but its translation has been in the hands of fallible man, to believe otherwise is foolish.
Quote
The reason being I believe God wants us to understand what he has to say so if my bible says forgive or forgiveness then that's what God wants me to know.
But back to the topic, if as you claim, God wanted it to say "forgive", then why doesn't it say forgive every time the original Greek word says "aphiemi", rather than all the other words the KJV uses?
I use the KJV Dave, and have used it as my favourite translation for over 30 years. However I'd be a complete fool to imagine that it is accurate on everything. That's why I compare it with other translations and also with the Greek original using an online concordance.
That's why I know the church's general understanding of forgiveness is very skewed!

Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2018, 08:57:58 AM »
Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply I was thinking of the words send away as in Strongs and in the Lords prayer where it says " forgive us our trespasses " would send away our trespasses mean the same thing is this what you are getting at.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline francis drake

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2018, 10:38:07 PM »
Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply I was thinking of the words send away as in Strongs and in the Lords prayer where it says " forgive us our trespasses " would send away our trespasses mean the same thing is this what you are getting at.

Yes Dave, that's right, just like with the Old Testament "scape goat" driven out into the wilderness on Yom Kippur.
"Forgive us our trespasses", simply means asking that God makes a separation between us and our sins, but it is conditional on us doing the same. Take note that this prayer is for believers, not unbelievers! It is about us being liberated from the spiritual burden of sin etc. in this life, not getting to heaven!


Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2018, 01:24:06 PM »
Hi Frances
Thanks for your reply but don't you think the word for give as we understand it is a good choice as I understand it it means to wipe the slate clean as we should do to those who trespass against us if we don't forgive them our heavenly father won't forgive us.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline John

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2018, 03:04:23 PM »
Dave,
          Your own post no 3 was theological correct, and your last post repeats the rubbish that Christians mus forgive inorder to be forgiven. That is no where taught in scripture.