Author Topic: Forgiveness, unconditionally  (Read 5387 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline John

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #112 on: December 19, 2018, 01:38:49 PM »
Dave,
 How do the survivoyers of 911 make peace with those who crash a plane into the towewrs?

How does the parents of that girl who vanished in the canaries/portugal make peace with the kidnapper/murder?

How do you make peace with someone who does not recognise that they have done you harm, or who finds it funny that they have hurt you?

I've said all along that there has to be repentance for there to be forgiveness.

Online davetaff

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #113 on: December 19, 2018, 05:33:03 PM »
Dave,
 How do the survivoyers of 911 make peace with those who crash a plane into the towewrs?

How does the parents of that girl who vanished in the canaries/portugal make peace with the kidnapper/murder?

How do you make peace with someone who does not recognise that they have done you harm, or who finds it funny that they have hurt you?

I've said all along that there has to be repentance for there to be forgiveness.

Hi John
I cannot answer that question it is up to each person to decide what to do if they say they are Christian then the should follow the what the scripture say which is.

25  And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

 26  But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses   
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you   

. 44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (Compare)

 45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

 46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

 47  And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

 48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect         

 19  Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

 20  Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. (Compare)

 21  Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good     

Mar 11:25  And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.       

Mat 6:14  For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Mar 11:25  And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mar 11:26  But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Luk 6:37  Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Luk 6:27  But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28  Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luk 6:29  And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
Luk 6:30  Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
Luk 6:31  And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luk 6:32  For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
         
So John how do you understand these verses what is your interpretation we can go through them one at a time if you like it seams nt me that you are saying we can ignore them or they are wrong.

these verses are the answer to those people you mentioned in your last post they are not my answers they are Gods.


Love and Peace

Dave
   

Online davetaff

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #114 on: December 22, 2018, 04:29:35 PM »
hi John
just thinking about what Christ said on the cross.

Luk 23:34  Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

The lord said they no not what they do in other words they acted in ignorance in which case the following would apply.

color=red]Num 15:28  And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
     


They had just sacrificed the lamb of God who died for the sins of the world in the above law it says nothing about repentance just that the sacrifice would make atonement for his sin.

so when Christ asked the father to forgive the it was a done deal his sacrifice atoned for there sins.


Love and Peace

Dave

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #115 on: December 23, 2018, 12:19:35 AM »

I think there may be a difference between my forgiveness and the forgiveness of Christ...

Having Jesus in me [should mean I forgive like Him - as He is doing it]

However - with me - [though I may forgive]  I cannot forget .. lest I make the same mistakes over and over again..

That would make me a fool - as we learn by our mistakes....

In the same way " I may turn my cheek" but that does mean I put up with physical abuse from a partner, regardless of what they do"  it does not mean I allow them to continue to beat me up - because after all [it is for better or for worse- to death us do part - or when they finally kill me]...

On the other hand when God forgives - He see's Jesus "covering a person and God who knows all things" you would assume that God forgets sins as He forgives"

But if God were to forget [then He would not know all things]...[Paradox]


Christ's forgiveness on the Cross enables the abused to find forgiveness  - however - Christ forgave those who put Him to death - I am not sure this applies to me.. unless of course we promote abiuse , in it's many forms...

Being human I continue to have a memory -  God being God must know all things - but know that Jesus covers over sin's...

He can recover the abuser and the abused [I cannot]

There is the difference....[even though you may have Jesus in you] you are not Jesus..

Yeah I know - it creates a gap between your experience and His....

There will always be that gap - there has to be...








Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #116 on: December 23, 2018, 12:30:16 AM »
BTW - it says/reads  "Father forgive them"  for they know not what they do...

Jesus was handing it over..to God who at this point was the higher power...

We can never understand the unity and relationship between the Trinity..

We only know basic relationship ...

Therefore forgiveness to us - cannot forget [Unless of course we have lost our minds] that God gave us]

Hope you get my point - I mean can I block out my own memory ..  maybe if tihngs are so painful [but that is not forgiveness -but  me trying to forget]...



 besides - it suggests that satan is forgiven and goes against God's own scripture ...

And  If God does not remember  those who put His Son  on the Cross - then there cannot be forgiveness.[for how could God forgive those He does not remember]

On the other hand if He did noit remember "those who came up agaainst Him" then He would not know His enemies... and how are they forgiven ?






Online davetaff

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #117 on: December 23, 2018, 02:45:21 PM »
Hi TJ
Thank you for your thought not to sure I understand them all but they stimulate the brain and gets one thinking along different lines

you said.
Quote
BTW - it says/reads  "Father forgive them"  for they know not what they do...

Jesus was handing it over..to God who at this point was the higher power...

We can never understand the unity and relationship between the Trinity..
     



I seams you are saying the same as John that Christ is saying I cant forgive them so  ill hand it over to father you mention the trinity but is Christ is God why would he need to hand it over to himself.

as you may know as far as the trinity goes I am a don't know because I can't find any 100% proof in scripture.

when Christ asked the father to forgive them they were forgiven the father would never refuse his son and if you read my previous post you will see that a person can be forgiven without repentance if they committed the sin in ignorance which they did our lord said they no not what they do.

Num 15:28  And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.     

When we think on the above verse we can see that it can have wide ramifications think of all those who have sinned in ignorance they can be forgiven through the blood of Christ.

There is another thing we have not considered those who crucified our lord where the carrying out the will of God it was essential that Christ should die for the sins of the people if they had not crucified our lord there would be no forgiveness

Love and Peace
Dave 
     

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #118 on: December 23, 2018, 11:08:57 PM »
I seams you are saying the same as John that Christ is saying I cant forgive them so  ill hand it over to father you mention the trinity but is Christ is God why would he need to hand it over to himself.


Well what do you make of John 14:28 ?  "The Father is greater than I"   ?


Jesus was speaking as a person [in flesh]...

During this time Jesus "obeyed His parents" - and He Obeyed the Father...

All that He Jesus was doing  was "from the Father"...

This is why it says in John 5:19  Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

This is why we read  John 14:9  Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father

And  - Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Why would Jesus sit down at the right hand of God - when He is God ?


So we end with  - 1 Corinthians 15:27 For "God has put everything under His feet." Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him.

Here God is bowing down - giving over to His Son ...



Now answering the question of the free will of Jesus.... see: Matthew 11:27 All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.





Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #119 on: December 23, 2018, 11:28:12 PM »
I also want to emphasis and recall the point that God does not forget...

I'm also going to come to you, from  another angle now... in your time..

Although the "angel of death"/Destroyer/ passed over the egyptian camp [He did not touch those who had the Blood on the lintels and around the doorframes...

Exodus 12:23  When the LORD goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down.



Thirdly and last...

Though you are forgiven through the blood of the Lamb - if God does not see your sins - then He cannot be the "all knowing God" - Omniscient....

hope you get the argument...[yes three points [I am a baptist] - naa not really .. joking..