Author Topic: How do Predestination and Free Will co exist !  (Read 406 times)

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Offline Tes Johnson

Re: How do Predestination and Free Will co exist !
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2018, 12:25:00 AM »
Hi Frances
I was not trying make the point that Jonah was a unbeliever who became a believe.
the point I was trying to make is that God had chosen Jonah to go to Nineveh and Jonah did not want to go so tried to run away but God brought him back and in so doing overrode his freewill.
even Moses tried to get out of going back to Egypt But God convinced him he should go so if one is chosen by God to do a certain task that's what you do.

As for your other question our Lord said

Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen.
 Mar 13:20  And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
   


The way I see the above is all the OT saints and prophets  were chosen by God to do his will in the NT Christ chose his 12 apostles they did not chose him.

Through all those who have been chosen the many are called and when they are called they can make a freewill choice to either accept or reject Gods Gospel.

The choice has to be of our own free will because it is about Loving God and God can not make us Love him it would not be Love.

As for freewill I did a word search of the bible and the word freewill only appeared 17 times and all in the OT and pertaining to freewill gifts to the temple.
Is our freewill gift the gift of Love to the body of Christ which is the temple we belong to.

Love and Peace
Dave   


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Quote
the point I was trying to make is that God had chosen Jonah to go to Nineveh and Jonah did not want to go so tried to run away but God brought him back and in so doing overrode his freewill.

But at the same time Jonah was responding to God and [at a certain time]  decided to turn around, so it may not be the Dad dragging the child along the floor - while he is kicking and screaming...

But more a child making a descision to go along with dad / hand in Hand...

I have Matthew 21:30 - come to mind 29?I will not, he replied. But later he changed his mind and went. 30Then the man went to the second son and told him the same thing. I will, sir,
 he said. But he did not go.




Offline davetaff

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Re: How do Predestination and Free Will co exist !
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2018, 02:37:24 PM »
Hi TJ and Frances

Quote
As for your other question our Lord said

Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen.
 Mar 13:20  And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
   

I cannot see the relevance of this.   

The relevance is they are two different groups the called and the chosen  the chosen are all those predestined from the foundation of the world to preach Gods word none of them where perfect they all had there faults.
Why God chose them I don't know may be they were in the right place at the right time but it seams to me they were jest ordinary people for the most part.

but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
   


The elect are those who are chosen a special group what are the days that have been shortened I believe it is the days of creation a new creation was started with Christ.

Love and Peace
Dave

 

Offline francis drake

Re: How do Predestination and Free Will co exist !
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2018, 09:23:37 PM »
Hi TJ and Frances

The relevance is they are two different groups the called and the chosen  the chosen are all those predestined from the foundation of the world to preach Gods word none of them where perfect they all had there faults.
Why God chose them I don't know may be they were in the right place at the right time but it seams to me they were jest ordinary people for the most part.

but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
   


The elect are those who are chosen a special group what are the days that have been shortened I believe it is the days of creation a new creation was started with Christ.
I really disagree Dave, (surprise).

Scripture says God calls all men to him by his spirit working in our human spirit deep within us.

Prov8v1Does not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
2She stands in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
3She cries at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the entrance at the doors
4Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.


John12v32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

1Jn2v2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Rom1v18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God?s invisible qualities?his eternal power and divine nature?have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

The work of God convicting man's heart is deep inside and hidden. Only when we accept that call made to every man, can we start to comprehend what Christ did.

The "Few are chosen" quote merely relates to those chosen to perform specific roles in what God wants to do. Most people will come to Christ, but have far too much going on in their lives to accept a calling,
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

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Re: How do Predestination and Free Will co exist !
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2018, 02:38:18 PM »
Hi Frances
that you don't agree with me is no surprise and the scriptures you have Quoted I don't think have anything to do with the chosen and the called.

From the lips of Our Lord

Joh 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
 Joh 15:19  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Act_9:15  But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
   


It seams to me as plain as day that there are those who are Chosen even Israel was chosen and all the patriarchs they did not choose God, God chose them and through Israel and the apostles the many are called.

The called can make a freewill choice  to follow Christ of not the ones who are chosen will do the will of God we have a good example in Israel they tried to go there own way many times but God brought them back and even now when they have been cut of for not accepting Christ and crucifying him in the end times they will be brought back.

Love and Peace
Dave