Author Topic: How do Predestination and Free Will co exist !  (Read 390 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cf&ff

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 167
  • Total likes: 1
  • Thanked: 2 times
  • Christian Faith and Fellowship Forum,Christian Believers,Preaching the Gospel Of Christ,Christ followers,Church Of Jesus,Online, forum and board,
How do Predestination and Free Will co exist !
« on: February 03, 2018, 12:04:44 AM »


How do Predestination and  Free Will co exist !



Offline francis drake

Re: How do Predestination and Free Will co exist !
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2018, 12:08:35 PM »

How do Predestination and  Free Will co exist !

Of course they do.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline John

Re: How do Predestination and Free Will co exist !
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2018, 06:38:35 PM »
They are two sides of the door into heaven.
We walk through it and it has the label free will, but once through if we lok back it is labeled predestined.

A silly picture but it puts the authority where it belongs with God.
It is he who saves us, sustains us and will greet us as we enter heaven.

Offline davetaff

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1814
  • Total likes: 113
  • Thanked: 51 times
  • Gender: Male
  • New :God is Love
Re: How do Predestination and Free Will co exist !
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2018, 05:31:50 PM »
Hi
The way I see it those who are chosen by God to doo his will are predestined from the foundation of the world the are all the old testament saints God chose them and obeyed did they have a choice not sure read the story of Jonah he tried to do a runner but God brought him back.

The rest of us are those who are called by those who are chosen we have free will to choose to believe or not.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline francis drake

Re: How do Predestination and Free Will co exist !
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2018, 10:55:22 PM »
They are two sides of the door into heaven.
We walk through it and it has the label free will, but once through if we lok back it is labeled predestined.
That doesn't make any sense John, nor has it any biblical basis.
Quote
A silly picture but it puts the authority where it belongs with God.
It is he who saves us, sustains us and will greet us as we enter heaven.
Of course he saves, and sustains us. But that doesn't prove we are predestined to receive Christ.

God gave man freewill. Those He foreknew would receive him, were the only ones predestined to be conformed to the image of his son.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline francis drake

Re: How do Predestination and Free Will co exist !
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2018, 10:59:25 PM »
Hi
The way I see it those who are chosen by God to doo his will are predestined from the foundation of the world the are all the old testament saints God chose them and obeyed did they have a choice not sure read the story of Jonah he tried to do a runner but God brought him back.
You cannot quote Jonah as an example of God forcing an unbeliever to become a believer. Jonah was already a servant believer of the most high God before God told him to go to Nineveh.
Quote
The rest of us are those who are called by those who are chosen we have free will to choose to believe or not.
Called by those who are chosen??????????/
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1814
  • Total likes: 113
  • Thanked: 51 times
  • Gender: Male
  • New :God is Love
Re: How do Predestination and Free Will co exist !
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2018, 02:29:48 PM »
You cannot quote Jonah as an example of God forcing an unbeliever to become a believer. Jonah was already a servant believer of the most high God before God told him to go to Nineveh.

Called by those who are chosen??????????/

Hi Frances
I was not trying make the point that Jonah was a unbeliever who became a believe.
the point I was trying to make is that God had chosen Jonah to go to Nineveh and Jonah did not want to go so tried to run away but God brought him back and in so doing overrode his freewill.
even Moses tried to get out of going back to Egypt But God convinced him he should go so if one is chosen by God to do a certain task that's what you do.

As for your other question our Lord said

Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen.
 Mar 13:20  And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
   


The way I see the above is all the OT saints and prophets  were chosen by God to do his will in the NT Christ chose his 12 apostles they did not chose him.

Through all those who have been chosen the many are called and when they are called they can make a freewill choice to either accept or reject Gods Gospel.

The choice has to be of our own free will because it is about Loving God and God can not make us Love him it would not be Love.

As for freewill I did a word search of the bible and the word freewill only appeared 17 times and all in the OT and pertaining to freewill gifts to the temple.
Is our freewill gift the gift of Love to the body of Christ which is the temple we belong to.

Love and Peace
Dave     

Offline francis drake

Re: How do Predestination and Free Will co exist !
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2018, 04:43:13 PM »
Hi Frances
I was not trying make the point that Jonah was a unbeliever who became a believe.
the point I was trying to make is that God had chosen Jonah to go to Nineveh and Jonah did not want to go so tried to run away but God brought him back and in so doing overrode his freewill.
even Moses tried to get out of going back to Egypt But God convinced him he should go so if one is chosen by God to do a certain task that's what you do.
Ok Dave, I accept that. Here are my thoughts.-
In my understanding from scripture and life, God deals with each of us as individuals according to knowledge and experience, and as such disciplines us as sons needing correction.
Thus what we see with an individual person in scripture, cannot always be applied to someone else. (Otherwise we'd all be dead!)

eg. Ananias and Sapphira, both died the same day they tried to deceive the Holy Spirit. Yet many others did the same afterwards and lived to tell the tale. Why didn't God smite them (or us) all the same way?

After years of spiritual wilderness for Israel, Ananias and Sapphira were there at a brand new move of God's mighty power
They were both close witnesses to the powerful and amazing miracles etc.

They had no excuse and had the God allowed their deception to go unchallenged, Satan would have entered the early church at its very foundation and done untold damage.

As Jesus said,to those whom much is given, much is required.

But there was also a much earlier version of that event, if we look at the sin of Achan after Jericho.
Again God was doing a new thing with Israel after years in the wilderness.
Again Achan was witness to the mighty outpouring of God's spirit with the utter destruction of Jericho.

His deception had actually enabled Satan to get a foothold in the assembly, resulting in the deaths of many Israelites. Like Ananias, he and his family paid with their lives.

There were many examples of deception later on that didn't get that sort of treatment. That's because Israel had completely lost its way and nobody remembered what God had done any more.

The way God deals with his sons entirely depends on how they have related to God up to that point.

Not every man is told to sacrifice his son on a mountain top. But Abraham knew absolutely that Isaac had been a miracle gift from God, and God could resurrect him. That's why he told the servants that he and the lad would return.

Not every man is like Job. Job1v8Then the Lord said to Satan, ?Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.?
God knew what Job was capable of handling when it came to spiritual warfare.

Jonah was a servant prophet who fully understood that God rightly had a call on his life because of the revelations he had witnessed as a prophet. In those circumstances, God had a right to overrule him.
I am not Abraham.
I am not Job.
I am not Jonah.
I am me, and God is dealing with me as a unique son. I have plenty of freewill

Quote

As for your other question our Lord said

Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen.
 Mar 13:20  And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
   

I cannot see the relevance of this.
Quote
The way I see the above is all the OT saints and prophets  were chosen by God to do his will in the NT Christ chose his 12 apostles they did not chose him.
Jesus didn't chose them to become believers as the 12 were already believing Jews. He chose and called them to walk with him as disciples and then sent them as apostles.
Quote
Through all those who have been chosen the many are called and when they are called they can make a freewill choice to either accept or reject Gods Gospel.

The choice has to be of our own free will because it is about Loving God and God can not make us Love him it would not be Love.
Absolutely agreed
Quote
As for freewill I did a word search of the bible and the word freewill only appeared 17 times and all in the OT and pertaining to freewill gifts to the temple.
Is our freewill gift the gift of Love to the body of Christ which is the temple we belong to.
There are many words we use (eg Trinity) that are not found in scripture, yet are implied all the way through.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)