Author Topic: Israel is Adam  (Read 1642 times)

Description: man in the Image of God

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Offline davetaff

Re: Israel is Adam
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2018, 04:20:24 PM »
Hi
Back to the subject Jesus had gone into Egypt come back passed through the Jorden river and been tempted in the wilderness all things that had happened to Israel.
Jesus starts his ministry his first act was to choose his apostles 12 in all the same number as the children of Jacob who became the 12 tribes of israel.
why jest 12 why not 15 or 10 there has to be a reason for just 12 I believe if Jesus is the new Adam then he must follow the same pattern as the first he is the new creation mentioned by Paul.

2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Act 1:23  And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
Act 1:24  And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
Act 1:25  That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26  And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fel upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
   


To replace Judas the Apostles appointed Matthias by lot I wonder if our lord approved of this as he later on appointed St Paul now all this is a mirror image of what happened to Israel.

the tribe of Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in revelations with the rest of the tribes they are excluded  only Josephs other son Manasseh.
So as with the Apostels there were 12 Judas was rejected for obvious reasons Matthias was not directly appointed by Christ but St Paul was so there are only 12 tribes of Israel and there are only 12 apostles.

Again we have a mirror image between Christ the last Adam and Israel

Love and Peace
Dave   

     

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Israel is Adam
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2018, 01:15:50 AM »
well no - 1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.


See ; 1 Corinthians 15:47  The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.


Alas John 3:31 The One who comes from above is above all. The one who is from the earth belongs to the earth and speaks as one from the earth. The One who comes from heaven is above all.


Offline francis drake

Re: Israel is Adam
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2018, 10:16:22 AM »
Hi
Back to the subject Jesus had gone into Egypt come back passed through the Jorden river and been tempted in the wilderness all things that had happened to Israel.
Jesus starts his ministry his first act was to choose his apostles 12 in all the same number as the children of Jacob who became the 12 tribes of israel.
why jest 12 why not 15 or 10 there has to be a reason for just 12 I believe if Jesus is the new Adam then he must follow the same pattern as the first he is the new creation mentioned by Paul.

2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Act 1:23  And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
Act 1:24  And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
Act 1:25  That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26  And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fel upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
   


To replace Judas the Apostles appointed Matthias by lot I wonder if our lord approved of this as he later on appointed St Paul now all this is a mirror image of what happened to Israel.

the tribe of Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in revelations with the rest of the tribes they are excluded  only Josephs other son Manasseh.
So as with the Apostels there were 12 Judas was rejected for obvious reasons Matthias was not directly appointed by Christ but St Paul was so there are only 12 tribes of Israel and there are only 12 apostles.

Again we have a mirror image between Christ the last Adam and Israel

Love and Peace
Dave   

   

Your logic is desperately flawed Dave.

Your theology is as flawed as the following,-

We know that an apple is a fruit.
We know that an orange is a fruit.
It would however be lunacy to claim an apple must be an orange because they are both fruits.

We know that Jesus mirrors the first Adam.
We know that Jesus mirrors Israel
It would however be lunacy to claim that Israel is Adam just because Jesus mirrors them both.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

Re: Israel is Adam
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2018, 11:35:54 AM »
well no - 1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.


See ; 1 Corinthians 15:47  The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.


Alas John 3:31 The One who comes from above is above all. The one who is from the earth belongs to the earth and speaks as one from the earth. The One who comes from heaven is above all.


Hi TJ
Thank you for your reply not sure what you mean by them the first one 1 Corinthians 15:45 I agree with we know there was a first and a last Adam.

Your second one 1 Corinthians 15:47 is a statement of fact but I would draw you attention to.

.   16  And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered     [/color

So God likens Abraham's seed ( Israel ) to the dust of the earth and from the dust of the earth God created the man Jesus.

Your last verse John 3:31 I have no comment to make it is a statement of fact and should be believed as such.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline davetaff

Re: Israel is Adam
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2018, 11:48:06 AM »
Your logic is desperately flawed Dave.

Your theology is as flawed as the following,-

We know that an apple is a fruit.
We know that an orange is a fruit.
It would however be lunacy to claim an apple must be an orange because they are both fruits.

We know that Jesus mirrors the first Adam.
We know that Jesus mirrors Israel
It would however be lunacy to claim that Israel is Adam just because Jesus mirrors them both.

Hi Frances
Thank you for your post what apples and oranges have to do with this discussion is beyond me not very helpful.

As for the rest of your post its nice to see you agree with me that there are points of correspondence between Israel and Christ so I have a legitimate reason to maintain that Israel is the pattern of the one who was to come which is Christ.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline francis drake

Re: Israel is Adam
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2018, 05:46:58 PM »
Hi Frances
Thank you for your post what apples and oranges have to do with this discussion is beyond me not very helpful.
If you cannot see the connection between your logic and my silly demonstration with oranges and apples, then that might explain why your theology has gone wildly off course Dave!  :great:
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As for the rest of your post its nice to see you agree with me that there are points of correspondence between Israel and Christ so I have a legitimate reason to maintain that Israel is the pattern of the one who was to come which is Christ.
I don't think anyone is arguing against the fact that many prophecies have a dual application to both Jesus and Israel, or that Israel is a pattern for the one to come. The problem is that you have gone miles beyond the bounds of common sense.

Fact1. Scripture is clear that many prophecies have a dual application to both Israel and Jesus.
Fact2. Scripture is also clear that the "last Adam", Jesus, mirrors the first Adam.

However, to take those two facts as some sort of proof that Israel is Adam is an astonishing leap in the dark,and a complete falsehood.

That is why I used the analogy of oranges and apples Dave.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Israel is Adam
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2018, 12:32:28 AM »

Hi TJ
Thank you for your reply not sure what you mean by them the first one 1 Corinthians 15:45 I agree with we know there was a first and a last Adam.

Your second one 1 Corinthians 15:47 is a statement of fact but I would draw you attention to.

.   16  And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered     [/color

So God likens Abraham's seed ( Israel ) to the dust of the earth and from the dust of the earth God created the man Jesus.

Your last verse John 3:31 I have no comment to make it is a statement of fact and should be believed as such.

Love and Peace
Dave

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from the dust of the earth God created the man Jesus.


Well yes - BUT - Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit ....  re : Matthew 1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.


Tell me anyone else who has been born from heaven/Holy Spirit.

No one - not even "born again" are actually conceived through the Holy Spirit....






Offline davetaff

Re: Israel is Adam
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2018, 02:33:53 PM »
If you cannot see the connection between your logic and my silly demonstration with oranges and apples, then that might explain why your theology has gone wildly off course Dave!  :great:I don't think anyone is arguing against the fact that many prophecies have a dual application to both Jesus and Israel, or that Israel is a pattern for the one to come. The problem is that you have gone miles beyond the bounds of common sense.

Fact1. Scripture is clear that many prophecies have a dual application to both Israel and Jesus.
Fact2. Scripture is also clear that the "last Adam", Jesus, mirrors the first Adam.

However, to take those two facts as some sort of proof that Israel is Adam is an astonishing leap in the dark,and a complete falsehood.

That is why I used the analogy of oranges and apples Dave.

Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply nice to Know that we have much that we can agree on it seams our only bone of contention is my assertion that Israel in Adam for me its not a leap in the dark but a leap into  the light.

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Fact2. Scripture is also clear that the "last Adam", Jesus, mirrors the first Adam.

   

This is very true and what I have bean saying all along and the only one we can see that is a mirror for Christ is Israel or are you saying that someone who lived thousands of years before the flood maybe a cave man is the image of Christ and I am thinking Of Christ at his second coming and being united with his bride.

Love and Peace
Dave